Charlotte Large: Can we heat homes from the London underground?
The director of one of the largest district heat networks in the UK explores how this could be a major decarbonising solution for population dense places around the world.
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Hannah: Hello and welcome to Solving for Climate, a podcast where we chat to scientists and innovators developing solutions to climate change. I’m data scientist Dr. Hannah Ritchie.
Rob: And I’m Rob Stewart, an entrepreneur interested in scalable climate innovations and the people and the science behind them.
Hannah: On today’s podcast we’re talking to Charlotte Large. She leads one of the largest district heat networks in the UK.
Rob: And we’ll be exploring how unusual heat sources like the London Underground and data centres are being used to heat and cool cities. They’re called, quite simply, heat networks.
Hannah: Charlotte is Director of Clean Energy and Heat Networks at Westminster City Council. They’re using heat from the River Thames, curiously, and working on lots of other intriguing heat network projects too.
Rob: So we know we have a huge global challenge on our hands when it comes to how we heat and cool our homes and this could be a major decarbonising solution for population dense places around the world.
Hannah: We’ll find out whether they’re worth the hype in this episode.
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Rob: So Hannah, you’ve mentioned heating and cooling, stuff like aircon, quite a lot on this podcast. What are the headline figures?
Hannah: For many countries, either heating or cooling is actually a very large part of their energy demand and their carbon emissions. So in the UK, for example, around a third of our emissions come from heating, and most of that is gas boilers. And the UK is not particularly unique in that. Look across the world, and in many countries, gas is still the dominant fuel used for heating. Cooling energy demand is slightly less.
So I think it’s around 7 % of electricity demand globally at the moment and maybe around 3 to 4 % of emissions. But I think what’s really really key there is that so far globally the focus has been on heating and that’s primarily because high income countries tend to be at higher latitudes where they can afford heating but they also need heating, right, because it’s colder.
What you’re starting to see now is actually quite a rapid rise in air conditioning. And that’s obviously for two reasons. One, the world is getting hotter, right? So just demand for cooling technologies is increasing. But income and having enough money to afford an air conditioner has been a big blocker for many low to middle income countries. And as people in those countries get richer, they obviously have access then to air conditioning and that then increases. Obviously that has some energy and carbon costs, but I think it’s important to highlight that for many people in those countries, cooling is just essential to living a comfortable life or actually having a life at all. For some people, it’s a life-saving technology.
So basically, heating and cooling technologies are a huge part of energy demand and a huge part of this climate puzzle. And so far, the progress there has been relatively slow. In the UK, emissions from heating have basically not changed for decades now. We haven’t really made progress on reducing them. So I guess in this episode, we’re going to speak to Charlotte about whether district heat networks can start to actually make a dent in that.
Rob: Yeah, start chipping away at it. So Charlotte’s team are working to decarbonize heating in particular through a heat network in an area which is at the heart of British politics, that’s Westminster, and there’s a lot that our international listeners will be interested to discover as well, could also concern them too, so let’s dive right in.
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Rob: So Charlotte, welcome to Solving for Climate. Lovely to have you.
Charlotte: Very nice to be here, thank you.
Rob: I suppose a question that we should, or really something that we should probably start with, and we often do is for people who don’t know what a new kind of technology is, talk to me like I’m a five-year-old, which is relatively simple to do. Tell me what a heat network is, how it operates, and what it does.
Charlotte: Well heat networks are basically the equivalent of a heating system but taking it at a much larger scale. Instead of having the pipes that you have in your house, taking your boiler heat and then distributing it and putting it to your radiators, what you’re doing is you’re taking that at a bigger scale and then in effect putting those pipes in the roads and in the streets and enabling that heat or that transfer of energy in the road so that you can take heat from multiple different spaces in the built environment and then bring them to individual buildings.
And then the system in the building is exactly the same. It’s the same radiator system or alternative system you’ve got. You’re just taking it out into a bigger scale.
Hannah: What people would see in their own homes is similar to what someone would see if they had, I don’t know, a gas boiler or something but all the differences are basically outside the home and how the heat gets to you?
Hannah: Yeah, similarly to heat pumps, depending on how the heat’s generated, it might be generated at slightly different temperatures. So you might have a system which is occasionally they’re called different types of generation, but all they are is basically saying different temperature flows in return of that warm water or that hot water or that water going to the buildings and back again to where the heating sources or the heat sources.
But in effect, is whatever your system is on the other side is the same. It just is designed to meet the temperature that’s coming into that building. So if you have got a more traditional heat network, which is at higher temperatures, then that can affect supply buildings that have existing radiative systems that have been in there, you know, 50, 100 years. But you might want to look at those systems and look at those buildings and look at the efficiency of the buildings to try and bring the temperatures down, because the more you bring the temperatures down, the more heat sources you can tap into and the more efficient those heat sources are.
Hannah: So then what’s the climate case for heat networks? Are there like headline figures on if I have a gas boiler or if there was a district heat network, how much carbon would be saved relative to a conventional building?
Charlotte: I think it’s a little bit more of a wider case for heat networks rather than... So, I mean, we all know that heating is a really tricky element of what we need to do to decarbonize the UK. And, you know, I think it’s widely accepted now that electrification is the route to decarbonizing. So we know for most of that will probably... most of us, that will probably mean air source heat pumps in the garden or, you know, potentially...
If we’re in an area where there is an ability to get ground source heating or some other alternative, slightly more efficient technology to air source, then that one might be the route. But where we’ve got a situation where we’ve got dense urban environments, decarbonising all those buildings with air source heat pumps is going to become really tricky. We also know that we have got heat sources that we could tap into, which would be more efficient and more cost effective than just taking heat out of the air or heat out of the ground.
The real case for heat networks is to actually make the electrification of heat more efficient. And not only does that have value by bringing in these alternative heat sources that we might not otherwise be able to capture, it also gives us the opportunity to also store energy in heat and in effect even those piping the ground for a heat network in itself, all that water and hot water is a thermal store, is an energy store, so it becomes a bit of a battery which gives us a bit more flexibility than lots of individual systems and lots of buildings to kind of manage those demands on the electricity grid and also make sure that we can produce heat in more efficient way.
Hannah: Yeah so like some of the places where we could get heat from are quite innovative, right? So like one of the projects you’ve worked on was like getting heat from the London Underground. I guess how do you get the heat out of there?
Charlotte: It’s a good example, but it’s also a bad example. So, you know, the good example for heat from the tube is actually the synergies are where TFL and others are pulling that heat out of the system already. So it’s a case, well, that fan is pulling that heat out because they need that ventilation of the tube. So how do we then tap into that heat that’s otherwise going to be pumped into the environment and try and get some heat recovery into that that then supports a heat network and that’s exactly what was done at Islington, at Bunhill.
But that is relatively small scale and you know that is still air to water so that is taking heat out of air which is more difficult, is more inefficient than taking heat out of water or other sources like energy from waste. It is a good example but it’s also a relative small and I don’t think we’ll have seen, we haven’t really seen the uptake because it is… there are other opportunities out there that actually could offer us more economic value than heat from the tube.
So other examples could be co-locating with data centers or even just actually across the city, we have so many buildings that are called and at the moment what they’re doing is they’re pumping all that heat that they’re taking out of those buildings into the atmosphere through the roofs, through the fans on the roof. And if we can find solutions that enable us to capture that before it turns into air and becomes just wasted into the environment and actually put that into systems, then we’re creating a much more efficient whole energy system approach to it.
Rob: I think it’s pretty clear to anybody who’s been listening to this that this isn’t particularly at the scale that you’re talking about. This is not two houses at the end of a road who are coming together to kind of build a heat network. This is kind of city scale part city scale, a lot of different stakeholders. Who fires the opening shot in getting a heat network off the ground? And how do you even get this?
Charlotte: Yeah, and it’s not tricky. It’s not easy. It’s very tricky. I wish it was not tricky. I think the challenge is, you know, you’ve got multiple stakeholders at each level. You’ve got, you know, the heat source where you might have others that you’re dependent on to unlock that heat source, whether that’s an energy from waste plant or whether that’s a data center or whether that’s other buildings.
We also have the demand side. So in order for the economics to really work this, you need an aggregation of buildings. You need multiple buildings saying, yes, this is what I want. And therefore, we’re creating the case that you’re going to have that demand. You’ve got that guarantee of income from selling that heat to us. And then you’ve got the middle bit, which is the big… It’s infrastructure. And in urban environments, it’s not tricky putting big… Again, I’ve used the same, it’s not easy putting pipe work in the ground and digging up roads and putting in, you know, what is a new utility and a relatively large utility at that.
And that’s where local authorities can play a role, but also regulation is coming forward to kind of help drive that environment to take us away from that kind of individualist, individual building solution into something that’s kind of more local area. Albeit it still needs to be relatively hyperlocal or local because these projects really only take off if you’ve got those things adding up: the heat source and the demand side.
Hannah: Is the UK particularly well placed for heat network solutions or is it just the same as most other countries? Like all countries have quite large amounts of potential?
Charlotte: No, I mean, so yes, yes, the potential is similar. I mean, in fact, if you look at the Nordics and the Baltics, actually the amount of heat networks in that space is much more significant. So the Committee on Climate Change and National Grid and DESNZ in all of their scenario modelling for what the most cost effective route for decarbonising the UK is, heat networks come in at being roughly 20 % of heat demand.
But if you look at the Baltics and the Nordics, you know, they’re up in those 20s. A lot of the countries are up in those 20s plus anyway. And actually, if you look at then where that is, know, heat networks make most sense in those urban environments. So actually, you know, we’re not talking about 20 % across the whole country spread out. We’re talking about really focused in those city centers.
Yes, in this part of the world, in the kind of more northern hemisphere, there’s lots of opportunities and it is across the board.
Rob: So Denmark is an example of a country that has success with heat networks, right? And one of the things that sort of strikes me about them is that they have this whole system approach around prices, planning, buildings, et cetera, et cetera. What’s the UK equivalent of that alignment and what are we missing?
Charlotte: Yeah, so one of the big challenges we’ve got at the moment is there is a lot of regulation in the making. There is still some kind of uncertainty around timings and around the detail, although a lot of the work is being done. We’re in this space where there’s a lot of interest, there’s a lot of kind of enthusiasm across the industry. It feels like we haven’t yet pressed go. The scale of delivery is really yet to be seen in terms of how successful we will be.
Rob: And also electricity is a lot cheaper in Denmark.
Charlotte: That is very true, yep.
Rob: Whereas gas is more expensive because they lump a tax on it, electricity is cheaper. And then over here, gas is three or four times more expensive than electricity. And I wonder to what extent that kind of cold hard fact is really the kind of major blocker on significant progress.
Charlotte: Well, I think it’s the major blocker for heat decarbonisation in general, whether that’s heat pumps or heat networks, there’s no difference really in terms of that barrier. But that is a very real barrier because we can’t make the case, it’s very difficult, it’s almost impossible to make the case against a gas counterfactual. You can make the case for heat networks against an individual heat pump scenario in most cases or many cases, but actually you’re still tackling that barrier of actually there’s no real massive incentivisation for buildings to move away from that.
And if they are moving away from gas, then quite often it’s done in quite a kind of insular building by building approach rather than a kind of local solution. And actually we need it to be that local solution.
Hannah: I’ll be honest and say I don’t really know how the economics or the bills part of this works, but I would guess that maybe some people’s reservations of a heat network would be that if they have their own supply in their own house, they have a little bit of flexibility over like what technology they choose. So they could choose a gas boiler, they could choose a heat pump, and they have, I guess, the flexibility to change supplier if they wanted to change supplier. I guess some people’s concerns would be if they were in a heat network area they would just be given that by default and didn’t have that sense of agency and control around it. Is that correct or is that a kind of misrepresentation of the model?
Charlotte: I don’t think it’s entirely a misrepresentation of the model, but similarly to what’s happened in Denmark and other Nordic and Baltic countries, there are regulatory mechanisms that can mean that the price is still fair and comparison, you know, you might have a single utility providing your heat, but that there is some benchmark against what is an appropriate price for that property.
And I think, I mean, I don’t want to criticize because obviously, you know, actually…
Rob: Go on…
Charlotte: Getting people to engage with their energy bills and getting people to engage with their energy providers is really, really important. But actually, I think we push that to the limits where there almost feels like there’s more control around electricity price than there actually is, more control around your gas price than there actually is. Obviously there is, you know, because if you sit with the same supplier forever, you know, you’re not going to get the best tariff.
But actually all the narrative around tariff switching and the ability to control, I think, has created a little bit of a challenge, which, or a fallacy, that actually we have more control than we actually do in this space.
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Hannah: In terms of the installation of a heat network, how disruptive is the process? I think for a lot of people, even just an individual household heat pump, they already feel like that’s quite disruptive. If you’re getting a ground source one, you’re digging up the back garden. How would a heat network compare?
Charlotte: I think that’s one of the benefits of heat networks is it does create an opportunity to decarbonize a building with less of that intrusion, less of that hassle factor. So if your system is, your existing system is okay to receive the heat at the temperature that it’s coming through the pipes, then in effect all you need is what’s called a heat interface unit, which is basically a way of transferring heat from one side of a metal plate to another side the most efficiently as possible in order to take that heat that’s in one side of the water system across that to the system that’s in the building. And those are relatively the same size as the equivalent of a gas boiler.
Hannah: And I guess like in the kind of local area, you are you having like roads dug up for like five years or like what... because the kind of external disruption in the kind of local area, what does that look like?
Charlotte: Yeah, similarly to any other utility you would be needing to dig up the roads. I mean, you know, as a local authority, we have highways teams and teams that are every day working with utilities to plan and strategically work out what the best timing is and how we can like make sure that there’s efficiencies with those, with that utilities going in the ground. And the same thing would happen with new regulations, heat networks will become statutory utilities. So they would apply to us like any other utility in terms of how to dig up the when they dig up the road and when they put the network in.
Rob: We’ve touched on the underground, but waste heat is everywhere. So what’s kind of on your menu to take from?
Charlotte: Definitely from our perspective, the higher the temperature or the easier to take that heat and the less electricity needed, I suppose, to upgrade that heat, the better because that makes it more cost effective and also then means that we can supply more. So anything where we can get cooling heat recovery has to be on the top because there’s other benefits of cooling heat recovery as well because, you know, by not pumping that heat into the environment, we’re not adding to the urban heat island effect and we’re creating a situation where we’re just being more efficient.
Water source is also a, you know, the Thames is a massive opportunity for us within London. Thames is really tidal, so that flow of water is quite significant. With water source heat pumps, you know, the small temperature difference that you get within the water body actually has a significant efficiency factor in terms of the performance of that heat pump. So it can be much more efficient, especially at scale, than individual air source heat pumps. So the river becomes a real opportunity.
Rob: We couldn’t have an episode of this podcast in 2025 without talking about data centers. I’m not sure that the heart of Westminster is truly quote unquote data center country, but just from a broader perspective, can you see waste heat from this, you know, apparently huge kind of pipeline of data centers that we’re going to get delivered in the UK being a significant unlock for some heat networks that might not otherwise have been viable?
Charlotte: Yeah, and it’s already happening. So around Old Oak, you know, that heat network up there, which we expect, hopefully, if we can get some kind of real momentum, I think the GLA are looking to try and bring that heat not only to serve Old Oak, but further into the city. And that’s because there’s a real data center cluster there. So that provides the opportunity to then bring that in. And there’s also the opportunity of really, you know, obviously bearing in mind that one thing we absolutely need to do is be mindful of what this does to our own local electricity network.
So what we don’t want to be doing is creating situations where we’re upgrading the electrical network and we’re upgrading a heat network. But if the electrical network allows and you know actually putting in smaller data centers and co-locating them is a real opportunity because we know that data centers are pretty much convert all of their electricity into heat. So it would be a travesty not to then capture that and if we can do that in a way that is local supply, then you’re creating a much more efficient kind of energy system.
Rob: Just going off the beaten track a little bit, if somebody is a resident in Westminster and granted, you’ve got to be pretty kind of high flying to be living bang smack in the middle of Westminster. But if they’re part of the heat network, would they be able to opt out of it and swap to a different tariff with somebody else? Or is part of the kind of challenge or the approach that you’re taking to kind of compel people in some way, shape or form to attach to the network?
Charlotte: It’s a difficult question because it depends on whether you’re talking about buildings. And you’ve got to remember the vast majority of buildings that would connect to heat networks wouldn’t be residential buildings. Out of our projections for decarbonizing Westminster, 68% of our emissions come from non-domestic buildings and commercial buildings. And predominantly heat networks would be in that urban built environment where there is a much bigger proportion of non-domestic and commercial buildings.
Regardless of what government does in terms of the regulations, we will, as Westminster, be wanting to make sure that the most cost-effective route to decarbonising happens for those buildings. So whether that’s working with Ofgem on pricing or observing our role in zone coordination going forward or actually developing our own heat networks because, you know, quite frankly, where we’re trying to develop our own heat networks will be where we’re trying to get the lowest cost solution for our own residents.
It’s difficult to say exactly what will happen at the moment. Most of this connection is around the economic case because there isn’t regulations in place and therefore it has to wash its face. In terms of our role as the council, we will be looking to protect our residents and our businesses as much possible in terms of price protection.
Hannah: For a lot of our listeners, they are living hotter climates. Air conditioning is already quite a large energy consumer and that will only grow, right? Is there a flip side to this where you can have not just heating networks but cooling networks?
Charlotte: Yeah, and we have them in the UK even. The Olympic Park has a cooling network alongside a heat network and that gives that network a massive synergy because the heat that they can take from the cooling can go straight into the heat network. But yeah, we’re seeing an increase around, I think… In India there’s an increase of cooling networks and in some other countries there’s a significant increase in cooling networks. So again, that opportunity of kind of bringing together that efficiency of scale, locating that storage of energy and creating that situation where you can get more efficient solutions, I think is driving that in other urban environments across the world.
Rob: If you could change one thing currently at the moment from a legislative point of view, a cultural point of view, an economic point of view - what would it be that would make your life significantly easier coming into work tomorrow?
Charlotte: Yeah, it’s really interesting, but I’ve been reflecting on this quite a lot and I think it is the cultural. I don’t know whether it’s our love and our history with gas and individual building solutions or whether it’s something to do with the fact that we’re quite an individualist culture relatively to other countries, but the kind of barrier of thinking collectively around our heating system seems very, very difficult, even when the economics make sense or the case makes sense.
Rob: As opposed to Denmark, right, which is really interesting. Culturally, they grow up there with a kind of collective heating being just a normal thing. People don’t have a boiler, people don’t have a thermostat. They’re just kind of, yeah, I get my heat from where everybody else does.
Charlotte: Similarly to they get their electricity supply or they get their gas, you know. But I think because heat has been very individual and very building centric for years in the UK, it is a real barrier. We’ve seen that in the new build sector, but I think we are increasingly seeing that as well with existing buildings decarbonizing or individual properties. And that is something that we’ve somehow got to work through and whether that’s better about making the case or... you know, being clear when there is a really good case, you know, or tackling some of those perceptions of monopoly or otherwise. That does feel like that will remain, at least for the minute, a barrier until we’ve normalized this a little bit more.
Rob: And Westminster’s probably going to be the highest profile example of its type in the UK, isn’t it? I’m not meaning to put pressure on you, but it’s like, this is the one that once delivered will be highly visible purely because of its locale, right?
Charlotte: There is amazing work going on across lots of cities across the country. I don’t, I don’t, yes.
Rob: Good deflection!
Charlotte: There will be a profile element to this. And I think, you know, we, are in a place where it feels like it makes the most sense because we’ve got the most, probably the most amount of buildings that struggle to do it on their own. But also we’ve got a really tricky space because we’ve got a historic urban environment where, you know, the roads aren’t very big and, you know, we’re going to try and squeeze in this utility, you know, try to squeeze in this utility to help everyone in the local area decarbonize, but actually that is going to be a challenging thing to do.
Charlotte: So yes, it’s not an easy project, I think as long as it makes sense, we’ll try and enable that as much as we can.
Hannah: So final question, you said I think one of the big barriers is kind of cultural. If there was one misconception people might have about heat networks that you could squash, what would that be?
Charlotte: That they’re new, because they’re really not. They are established technology. Ooh I don’t know, I want to say millions of people, but I’m sure it’s millions of people it must be, you know, are supplied every day with their heating from heat networks. So I think the perception in the UK that this is a really new technology and it’s really scary and really risky and not very efficient, not very good, I think needs to be quashed because it is working well elsewhere.
Rob: Charlotte, wonderful to have you on the programme today. Thank you so much and for giving us an opportunity to one, learn a little bit more about heat networks, but also to kind of see it through your eyes at the forefront of what’s going on in Westminster. And yeah, wish you all the best of luck and we’ll be keeping it close eye on it.
Charlotte: Thanks for inviting me.
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Hannah: So Rob, we just had a great conversation with Charlotte. I’ll admit I have very little underlying knowledge of this stuff. Like it’s just stuff that I’ve not looked into a ton, right? I know you know quite a bit more about this. What’s your perception after having that conversation?
Rob: There other places in Europe, in colder parts of Europe, Denmark, the Baltics, that have had heat networks for a very, very long period of time, right. And actually, we have a very significant number here in the UK as well. Most people would never have seen one. I think the thing that I find interesting about Denmark is because it’s historically well established, they have the planning, they have the legislation, they have everything that is there to kind of optimize the delivery, maintenance and improvement of district heat networks already exists.
Whereas the way I look at it at the moment in the UK, the inverse is almost true across all of those things, right? We’ve mentioned the kind of electricity and gas kind of differential, which is fundamentally problematic. But then there’s also things like our buildings are older, right? Like their buildings tend to be a little bit newer.
My take on heat networks is that I would love to see them expand, but I do think there are kind of structural and economic reasons why it’s going to be tremendously difficult to do within the UK.
Hannah: I mean, I think what was interesting for me from the conversation, and I felt like I was asking the very, simple questions of like, what would it look like in my house? And like, would the street get dug up? But I think that actually reflects the fact that for the not average person, of which I’m now including myself here, because I just don’t think about heat networks a lot, is that they don’t know much about heat networks at all. That probably has some impact on where you focus your energy to get the most buy-in, right?
Like, I think she was quite clear that she saw more potential for the kind of commercial side of things rather than residential. And maybe part of that is because with residential, you do need to convince everyone in all these buildings who have no idea what a heat network really is, versus commercial buildings where probably that buy-in is maybe easier to get.
Rob: Yeah, and also a commercial building is much bigger. It’s kind of one connection, right? So you’re trying to kind of like deliver connections to 400 households versus one commercial building which has the equivalent of 400 households of space. It’s much simpler for them to kind of, and as Charlotte was alluding to as well, they kind of need to, they need to kind of get these connections on board in advance in order to deliver the heat network. They need to know that that offtake is there. So actually going out and kind of securing large buildings…
And then what she was saying, know, Westminster is interesting because actually it would be a very hard place to kind of deliver heat pump solutions on an individual basis because, you know, these… It’s very high dense, these buildings are oftentimes pretty old and not all of them can have huge amounts of kind of heat pumps on the roof. So it makes a lot of sense.
I mean, look, Westminster is iconic, right? Within that area, which also includes the Houses of Parliament and Big Ben, you’ve got a very visible kind of test case that other people will look at. And so I think it’s really, really important actually that the Westminster network is a success.
Hannah: Agreed.
Thank you for listening to this season of Solving for Climate. If you’re looking for transcripts of today’s episode you can find them on our Substack in the podcast description.
Rob: Goodbye.
Hannah: Goodbye.
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